AI chat about Krishnamurti (and Advaita) and some insights into why it works for some and not others

 

I'm measured in how I use AI and take what it says with a grain of salt, noting it has limitations and is basically a piece of software that is using a limited data set.

However, sometimes it does come up with neat little summary points, and I thought this one about Krishnamurti, and why he lands/doesn't land with people at different times, was a good one. I would also add Nisargadatta into this (in place of JK) for exactly the same reasons.. and probably most Advaita teachers/teachings, especially the more contemporary types that skip the traditional preparation stages.

AI output:

Why Jiddu Krishnamurti works for some

It works only when a few conditions are already in place:

1. High native awareness
   Some people can actually observe without immediately analysing, fixing, or dissociating. For them, his pointing lands instantly.

2. Low need for psychological safety
   Krishnamurti offers zero reassurance. If you don’t need comfort, guidance, or progress markers, you can stay present with the raw fact.

3. Disillusionment with paths and techniques
   People burned out on methods, teachers, and spiritual ambition often have a clean “drop” when they hear him.

4. Strong nervous-system capacity
   Choiceless awareness means no escape from fear, pain, contradiction. If your system can tolerate intensity, insight can cut through fast.

When it works, it’s surgical. Immediate clarity. No buildup. No ladder.

---

Why it fails for most people (including very sincere ones)

This is the uncomfortable truth.

1. People mistake passivity for awareness
   They stop effort, but awareness never comes online. Result: subtle dissociation, stagnation, or spiritual bypassing.

2. Attention is too weak
   Krishnamurti assumes an ability to stay with perception. Most people can’t. So they intellectualise instead.

3. Unresolved trauma hijacks the process
   “Don’t escape fear” sounds noble — until the body floods. Without grounding, insight collapses into overwhelm.

4. The mind turns his words into ideology
   Ironically, people follow Krishnamurti by repeating “no method, no path,” which becomes another belief.

5. No developmental scaffolding
   He removes the controller before it’s functional. For many, that leads to confusion, not freedom.

---

The hard line (this matters)

Krishnamurti is not a training system.
He is a final pointing.

• If you’re not ready → nothing happens

• If you’re half-ready → frustration

• If you’re ready → collapse of illusion

No middle ground.

---

Practical truth most teachers won’t say

Most humans need capacity-building first:

• attention

• emotional regulation

• somatic stability

That’s why people often do better starting with:

• mindfulness

• somatic work

• structured inquiry

…and then Krishnamurti detonates what’s left.

---

One-sentence verdict

Krishnamurti works only when the mind is already quiet enough to hear the truth — otherwise it becomes either philosophy or paralysis.

Kelee Meditation and Ron Rathbun's meditation approach. Notes - Part 1 - A unique meditation approach touch several key bases.

 Kelee Meditation and Ron Rathbun's meditation approach. Notes - Part 1 - A unique meditation approach touching several key bases

This find was completely random and unexpected. It started one evening when spontaneously traversing the Apple App Store and finding an app called "Kelee Meditation". I read some details and was interested in this little app and the meditation approach, which I had never heard about before-- being the meditation buff that I am. I then discarded the idea for several months, and planned on returning again to the Kelee Meditation once I had cleared my plate of some existing work.

Probably 6 months later, I had some free time to explore this meditation again, and listened to a few podcasts with the founder Ron Rathbun. I was immediately interested when he relayed his background and early traumatic childhood, related to his own father's 'stuff' as a returned vietnam vet. My own background was similar and I could related to how messed up growing up with a vietnam vet as a father could be.

The actual meditation approach seemed more aligned with health, medicine, healing, stress reduction and these secular meditation benefits.. there wasn't much religious or spiritual involved from what I could gather. There was a highly unusual vocab / lexicon however, and this would need to be understood to fully appreciate the meditation practice and approach. Another unusual factor was that the founder was into surfing, and there seemed like a small group of people with interests in surfing that had taken up the meditation. Most of the teachers or students seemed from this background. Again, pretty unique.

Another few months passed, and almost randomly, I found a social media post about a Beginners Kelee Meditation course, being offered online (great for my schedule), and based in NSW, Australia (again great for my situation at the time). I enrolled and waited for the 10 week course to start.. and then started some deep dive research. Ordered a couple of booked from Amazon related to the meditation. A beginners guide, and also Troubleshooting the Mind. Noted some key themes in the meditation approach as well.

Key themes:

- Health

- Stillness of mind

- Healing

- Reduction and elimination of stress, anxiety, depression

- Relaxation of tension

- Understanding (insight) into the causes of suffering

- Understanding of emotional triggers and causes that lie in the inner body/mind/'greater kelee' etc

- Minimal time investment-- 5 minutes to 15 minutes x 2 daily ideally

- Long term benefits aligned with the above, and that matched some forms of mindfulness meditation and relaxation type meditations (e.g. TM)

First experiences:

First experiences were good. Felt like a combo of calm abiding/insight with some awareness of awareness at the end or when settling at the 'surface of the mind' area. Nice combination approach with minimal time effort. Also like the emphasis on stillness of mind, reflecting at the end on the experience, journal, and relaxation of stress physically and mentally at the start.

Weeks later:

I started to enjoy this meditation approach and style even more after practicing it for several weeks, months etc. The simplicity of it became apparent and effective. The small incremental approach to progress also was a benefit, and the minimal time required. Relaxation and release of tension became a bit part of the practice, and really brought my meditation sessions and out of session experience to another level. Generally, I'm an 'effort' kind of person, and this style of meditation was really what I needed around mid-end 2024. The journal writing also came into play and assisted on so many fronts where a teacher/master/guru etc. would have normally come into play, except journal writing was much more accessible, and also became a joy to complete each day (sometimes several times a day), on topics of concern, issues, appreciation and in seeking inner guidance.

Things that I like about Kelee Meditation:

- It offers an easy to follow, simple, streamlined and basic meditation routine that can be followed by virtually anyone

- It's neutral in language and philosophy, avoiding cultural limitations

- Quick and easy to perform - around 5-8 minutes meditation routine x 2 daily, with journaling after or at a convenient time

- Places emphasis on journal writing and reflection via writing a daily journal. This is a game changer for many people since journal writing can really clarify thought processes, reduce stress and anxiety overall, offer a private platform for emotional release and focus, and so much more. I can't really overstate the benefits in journaling, even random thoughts and topics that occur stream-of-mind. In KM, however, the emphasis is on journaling related to the meditation itself, it's quality, obstacles, and any emotional triggers, 'compartments' and other objects that become apparent.

- Stillness. This is another key aspect that is emphasized in Kelee Meditation. There's not many meditation approaches that make direct use of stillness and silence as their main vehicle, however, KM does this, which is refreshing for a change, and also works very well for those who are hooked into 'doing' and 'tasks' and techniques etc. This nondoing approach can also be a game changer for many aspirants.

- Mindfulness throughout the day, in terms of where one's attention (or 'conscious awareness') is wandering to, and what it is doing, then making use of skills in mindfulness to bring it back to the surface of the mind or what's in front of one.

- The philosophy works well with many other nondual approaches and teachings, specifically Advaita Vedanta and pragmatic Advaita (e.g. teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri Nisargadatta, etc), but also works with certain schools of Buddhism, such as Zen, and some of the less complex forms of Mahayana Buddhism.

- Relaxation and release of tension is a big part of this meditation. This seems to be an area that is often understated in many meditation styles, where it seems that it's up to the aspirant to 'show up' and 'make an effort'. Relaxation of tension, especially in the head and brain, is crucial to being open to a wider experience and deeper inner knowing.

- The community centred around KM are very down to earth, simple in approach, and not at all like some 'spiritual' communities out there that suffer from various forms of delusion. The people using KM are mostly 'non-spiritual' types, which again makes this approach and community rather appealing for many aspirants that want a break from the usual spiritual community shenanigans.

I really have no issues recommending Kelee Meditation, taking a course in learning it, or ordering course books. It's a great introduction to meditation in general, outside of concentration type practices. It's also a great way to gain some experience in stilling the mind and thought, and abiding in the 'heart' space.

Craving, desire, bodily impulses and management approach of various awakened "Nonduality" teachers.

 

12 February 2024.

I’ve been pondering a lot about craving, and dealing with craving. I noted that there’s a divide between mental type methods, and body methods or “embodied awakening” as SK calls it. I am moving towards the embodied practices at the moment such as Morrnah Simeona's Ho’oponopono 12 Step process and framework. This is much more on that embodied side than HL’s modernised form (which is a mix of both body and intellectual "tools", but for me in 2022 remained almost totally intellectual and mentally tiring vs now where it’s a breeze and effortless to work the practice and involves a strong connection with the Inner Child / Subconsious where arisings are mostly coming from).

Compared some advice today from NIS as well, which didn’t sit well about exteriorizing the craving or desire and watching it or observing it. Seems like the usual dislocated approach that I used to take, and most people take on encountering awareness teachings, and which works for a while, but not in the long-run. But on reading it later, it seems he was pointing to being aware of it first, and then somehow using it with the I AM.

This seems similar to the misunderstanding with Ramana, where people keep just ignoring arisings and emotions and going back to just awareness, when instead he MAY have been actually pointing to BEING the ego-I self and fully being present as the self, and then that gets subsumed into the I AM ness.. We don’t approach pure consciousness directly, since it’s not accessible for the intellectually identified mind, and will likely end up in spiritual bypassing and suppression of emotions, craving, etc.

A lot of teachers or teachings I've come across over the years, such as Shinzen Young, Scott Kiloby, Linda Clair, Eckhart Tolle, Barry Long, and many others, especially those of a more contemporary nature, are firmly in the embodied camp. Not to be confused with contemporary Nonduality teachers, such as Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, Ramesh Balsekar, Sailor Bob,  and all Neo-Advaitins who are firmly in the intellectual understanding only camp and don’t deal with the body at all except as some sort of aspect of consciousness.. And coincidentally are the most likely to be misunderstood and used for spiritual bypassing by the ego.

The Silavant Sutta. Attending to the five clinging-aggregates as a way to insight, freedom from self-identification.

This little sutta is an excellent summary of one approach in investigating each of the 5 aggregrates, and in seeing through their (false) identification as one's self. It also demonstrates the use of appropriate attention leading to the realization of freedom (right effort).


This can also be considered a meeting point with Vipassana, Self-Inquiry (Atma-Vichara), and Neti-Neti.. all methods aiming at the same goal of clearing the habitual tendency to identify self with external objects.

Silavant Sutta: Virtuous (SN 22.122    )

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side.


As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"


"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."


"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"
"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."


"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"
"A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."


"Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"
"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."


"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"
"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."

The ego has no being. (ACIM)

I had been listening to and reading A Course in Miracles (Text), when I came across this quote:


"The ego is incapable of knowing how you feel. When I said that the ego does not know anything, I said the one thing about the ego that is wholly true. But there is a corollary; if only knowledge has being and the ego has no knowledge, then the ego as no being." (Text 8-VIII.7)


This reminded me of the use (in some circles) whereby the word 'knowledge' is interpreted as 'knowing' or the act of knowing (i.e. being aware) only, rather than in the usual sense of amassing intellectual data/facts/thoughts etc.


In this sense, 'knowledge' or 'knowing only' equates exactly with being, since both as also synonyms for just awareness or consciousness.


Hence, a thought construct, including the primal thought-construct-tendency which is the 'ego' ('I-thought'), cannot actually know anything, in the sense that it is not self-aware or endowed with any form of awareness itself-- but rather lives only as a construct existing in our awareness. The ego doesn't assert itself in deep sleep (or death) for instance, and at times when our waking consciousness seems to be in abeyance.


Being without awareness (knowledge) and being just a thought-construct, the ego thus has no being itself, and is rather just like a computer program- playing out its programming as it was created to do, relying on power beyond itself, and mostly for the sake of the body and its own survival.


This leads to the inquiry of what one really is, if the ego ("I-construct) and the body have no inherent being in themselves.. and taking into account that we normally regard ourselves as a body-mind entity.


Without jumping into further concepts, such as 'we are soul, spirit, Otherness' etc.. it is possible to stop and enquire directly into the nature of what we are in this moment, with the understanding that we are prior to the awareness of ourselves as a body, and prior to the awareness of ourselves as an ego. One means for doing this is via the practiced habit of self-attentiveness and patient observation directed squarely at one's "self" (or the feeling of one's "self").

Mindfulness of posture.

Mindfulness of posture (body, rupa) and the 4 possible postures (standing, walking, sitting, laying), is a very calming and portable practice.

I've been finding it enjoyable even while riding busy and noisy public transport, which makes difficult going for other practices such as using mental objects or even open awareness.

Am I 'the universe'? Yes and no.

It's understandable some people rail against the commonly held notion in spiritual circles that "you are the universe!", and speaking from a dualistic standpoint, it is nonsense. There's clearly 'this' here, and 'that' there. And as a starting point (from a dual reference point), the attention does need to be directed back onto 'that' which is aware of itself (hence all the exhortations to find the watcher, see the seer, abide in beingness, notice that you are not the object etc etc.)

BUT, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

There is another response from another perspective, and probably a little more accurate in terms of doing away with the above duality of ANY subject and object (if such can be aimed at):


Comment (spiritual person A):

"You are the universe." What crap. You might as well say "You are your body."
Or perhaps we are so asleep that we managed to switch the word "God" for "Universe" without noticing - meaning: great, awesome, otherly, infinite space beyond our comprehension.
Whatever the universe "Is", it's not that which we perceive with our five physical senses, and it's sheer human arrogance also to state that our collective awareness is "it".
Rant over.


Response (DP):

Although the OP has a point, from another perspective, what are we BUT phenomenality? 

Noumenality can't even be spoken of, and is attribute free, so the only 'part' of existence that can be spoken about and that makes any sense to equate is, in fact, just phenomenality and therefore 'the universe'. 'The body' is just a designated label for what's showing up sense-wise.. And yes, I'm that too (otherwise there would be yet another duality set up).

A few notes from my Alexander Technique lesson today- awareness of the head.

Lesson 4 September

Key points:

• Head is primary, remember the image of a baby and its head-prominence.
• Observe young children and babies, and their body posture and movement.
• Being with yourself is knowing where your head is, and then your whole 'self' spatially. Being with yourself isn't an observer mode, but sitting comfortably in your body and body experience. (This could also be termed 'self-remembering'. It fits the bill because one is self-aware at this time, and aware of what’s going on around.- me)
• Flow- one activity flows on to the next, there is no stop/start or separation. Awareness and movement is constant, even sitting ‘still’, or taking ‘a break’ involves movement and flows from a previous action to a next action.
• Don’t try to adjust things (back position, head etc.), the body will let you know what needs to be adjusted, provided you are self-aware and experiencing things from head-down. It is only when tuning-out or in autopilot (habit) mode that we lose connection with the body and issues arise.
• Make time during the day to feel where your head is located, and then your body, and whole ‘self’, and just experience sitting and being without any intention or need to do anything.
• Experiment with ‘noting’ if the idea arises, though perform the noting within the context of the whole ‘self’ rather than just fixating on one arising (such as ‘touch’); note and be aware of the whole context occurring.
• Take note when moving that the head is leading, or at least be aware of where you are going and what you are doing (while experiencing the head-body connection).

Another change in direction- returning to Fourth Way ideas as a relational point of focus.

Another surprise, chiefly to myself, has been the return of my  focus onto Fourth Way ideas, material and approach to self Work. I first stumbled onto Fourth Way (and Gurdjieff) material probably a decade ago, when interested in related (Westernized) Sufi practices and traditions. 

I have no idea how long this renewed focus will last for, but it seems powerful enough to have prompted a change in this blog :), its focus, and also my own focus and thinking in regards to personal transformational Work and Self (re) discovery.

This no doubt this was also prompted by some powerful and inescapable physical changes (injury etc.) that were brought to bear on my body, and the clear demonstration that "mind only" schools simply can't cut it when the physical mechanism (or emotional apparatus) is disabled, and cannot function normally.

The realization (re) occurred that a balanced approach, making use of the body, emotions and mind all together, seems to have been clearly pointed out- although this idea isn't new, and is stressed often in a number of traditional schools. Newer schools, such as Neo-Advaita groups, or "mind-only" groups such as ACIM, New Thought, Neo-Gnosticism, Christian Science, etc. generally disregard the body and giving physicality any basis at all. 

It's easy for a natural "mind" person (or in Fourth Way terms- Man Number Three), such as myself, to focus exclusively on mind-only spiritual paths, such as pure self-inquiry, mind-yoga, contemplative practices, meditation etc., at the expense of the body or emotional centre. Of course, a certain amount of success is inevitable when doing what one is naturally good at doing. This doesn't mean, however, that such success is the 'end of the road' so to speak.

It strikes me that at this point in time, more than any other in human history, the body/physical mechanism seems disproportionately disregarded and distorted. The use of technology, electronic information, modes of communications, etc. have all turned human functioning upside down in terms of having any semblance of balance between body/heart/mind usage, or even balance in terms of what parts of the body are used and how.

All of this has left a powerful impression on my own thinking-being, and seems to have performed the function of a 'shock' of which I've become conscious of, and has thus changed the course of my awareness work and focus.

It's my hope that what I blog about here is of some help to some 'one' out there, and this is one of the inner driving forces that continues to motivate me to post things here at different points in time.

A change in events.. and focus - physical injury and Body Awareness.

Things took a very unexpected turn recently (in the last 7 weeks), chiefly due to acute pain coming from a 'pinched nerve' (herniated disc) in the neck. It's the sort of thing one wouldn't wish on one's worst enemy. My left arm was virtually useless, and there's no position (sitting, standing, sleeping, etc.) that feels comfortable at all. Most people that have the misfortune to experience this (in the neck or lower back) usually take pain killers like candies, in order to stop going completely insane. One normally just has to "wait it out", especially without resorting to harmful NSAIDs etc., or surgical intervention.

Anyhow, it seemed to be an ideal time to explore (or re-explore) BODY AWARENESS. An area, which on reflection, I had seriously 'left behind' a while ago, in favour of pretty much always hanging out in open awareness or witness mode. I can certainly predict that my days of hanging out in 'no body' mode are over for the next while.

As it happened, with acute pain, and the total non-functioning of my body (in terms of movement), I found myself drawn to exploring:

• The Alexander Technique
• Feldenkrais
• Mindfulness of sensations
• EFT
• Gurdjieff Work (around body awareness, and the Moving Centre + Emotional Centre)
• Self-inquiry (around pain, and "I" identity with pain)

These were also supplemented by medical attention (doctors, Chiropractic (which caused more issues), Osteopathy (very helpful), etc.), and a good regime of natural supplements.

After 7 weeks, things started returning to 'normal' in terms of body functionality. My Osteopath was rather surprised at the rate of recovery, and commented that most people with this injury took between 6 weeks and 6 months.

Of the above, I found Alexander Technique (through lessons with a teacher) to be highly beneficial, insightful and completely outside any prior ideas I had related to what it was. It also fits in perfectly with any number of 'spiritual systems', even though the focus is purely physical (or educational). The ideas of 'inhibiting automatic habits', 'pausing', adjusting, bringing parts into awareness and unity, etc. all fit perfectly with Gurdjieff Work as well.

Seven weeks of intense pain and disability was a humbling, but truly fresh experience. "Life" never ceases to surprise, instruct, and lead.. often to places unexpected.

Over the next while, I'll be re-exploring some basic "Self-Observation" and Body Awareness ideas through the blog and on my other accounts.